00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;01 [Host: Mr. Stermer] All statements, views, and opinions are personal and do not represent the government, DoD or the United States Army. Welcome to the center for Army Lessons Learned podcast Insights from the Fight. The podcast dedicated to bringing you lessons learned from exercises warfighters and Army fielded forces. I'm your host, Mr. Jeremy Stermer. Today we're discussing lessons learned by Battalion XOs and S3. 00;00;28;02 - 00;00;46;01 [Host: Stermer] We'll discuss how some field grade officers approach their duties and direct activities to achieve success with their units. Joining us today are three leaders who are KD (key developmental) complete and have over 16 years of experience working at various staff positions throughout the Army, including all having served at XOs and S3 and the battalion staff. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. 00;00;46;02 - 00;01;03;27 [Host: Mr. Stermer] I'd like to give you a minute to introduce yourself to our audience as we prepare to talk about some of our lessons learned. [Guest: MAJ Rice] Hi. My name is Ron Rice. I'm an armor officer, have about six years of experience across multiple battalion staffs and some brigade time served as an S3. I had about 18 months in that job before I took a company command, which was my second company command. 00;01;04;01 - 00;01;21;18 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Served as a Battalion S3 and a Battalion XO that included two NTC rotations, as well as a deployment to Europe, with the regional aligned force over there, I focused on training Ukrainian forces, as well as some other aspects of what was going on the continent at that time. [Host: Mr. Stermer] Thank you. Ron. Charlie. Good morning. [Guest: MAJ Foy] My name's Charlie Foy. 00;01;21;19 - 00;01;42;16 [Guest: MAJ Foy] I have about six years of experience across staffs from the battalion all the way to the division level. And a battalion S4 works in the S3 as the actual S3. And a Battalion XO was a G 35 planner, Deployed in support of Poland. We're focused on, our partners and allies over there. I'm an infantry officer by trade. 00;01;42;18 - 00;02;01;20 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Major Joe Perez, I'm a armor officer by trade. That time on, S-3 staffs at the squadron, battalion, and brigade levels, sometime as a division battle captain. The chops cell and then my KD time as a battalion XO and S3. During that time we deployed to NTC as well as to Europe, in support of the RAF rotation and Operation Triton Ready. 00;02;01;20 - 00;02;18;19 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Awesome. Let's dive into some of the challenges that you've encountered as either a Battalion XO. When, you gentlemen first arrived on battalion staff, how did you assess the personnel and systems and determine where you were going to apply your time? [Guest: MAJ Rice] Yeah, so I'll jump on that one. I had an interesting experience when I came down to be an S3. 00;02;18;20 - 00;02;39;12 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I had luckily been assigned to the brigade staff uniquely, because the brigade was in Korea for approximately ten months and then I joined. I stayed on the ready reserve as a part of a division tasking. So I was familiar with the organization in the battalion before I got there. It also changed with a guy who was moving up to become the Brigade S3. 00;02;39;14 - 00;02;55;23 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So I showed up and my rip with him was about 15 minutes before he was like, hey, I'm going to Fort Hood like this afternoon is the battalion here? Are the people that you have, Good luck. I knew some of the individuals that I was kind of going to be working with, but at the same time, I didn't get any kind of transition period. 00;02;55;23 - 00;03;17;13 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So I very quickly had to sit down, write everybody's name on a whiteboard, figure out what their branches are and their specialties and their backgrounds, and immediately kind of had to start making assessments on, hey, I can lean on this guy. I know this guy from the time I was here on Ready Reserve, and I've worked with him before, and I got very lucky that I had a very talented team of people that I inherited from a leader who did a good job training his staff. 00;03;17;19 - 00;03;51;03 [Guest: MAJ Rice] We also had a weird transition because this was also the time of the Covid vaccines. So the battalion was split between Miami and Dallas running two different operations. So I also didn't meet my battalion commander for like the first 60 days of my S-3 time. It was really me and another major who was phenomenal is the soon to be outgoing XO running a battalion with him, kind of knowing the systems and processes and kind of mentoring me like it usually happens when you transition into the S3 and you have an experienced XO. At the same time, it was like, hey, I don't have a boss who's readily available and or present, and now I have 00;03;51;03 - 00;04;12;27 [Guest: MAJ Rice] a staff that's about to go into a summer transition. So a lot of it was just sitting down whiteboarding it and then going and sitting down and talking with Aaron and having conversations about, hey, who is a good staff officer in this S3 shop. [Host: Mr. Stermer] As you, describe that situation? How did you deal with training that new staff as you were trying to get to know them as you started doing your functions as an operation officer? 00;04;12;28 - 00;04;39;07 [Guest: MAJ Rice] The biggest thing that we leaned into was trying to actually train the battalion, even though the Covid vaccine task force operations were going on and I was missing two of my armor companies, I still had an infantry company. The goal was to take that infantry company and to train them as highly as we could on individual squad level tasks, trying to get them to at least a live a buddy team, live fire level of proficiency before everybody would come home. 00;04;39;07 - 00;04;56;14 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And we started gunnery progression later on in the summer. I use that as an opportunity to take the staff, especially the younger captains in the S3 shops and the lieutenants that I just inherited as they came out of platoon positions into the s3 shop. And I used that as an opportunity to start working through, hey, this is how we build the eight step training model. 00;04;56;14 - 00;05;13;23 [Guest: MAJ Rice] This is how you plan training at the battalion level so that the company can be successful. And it worked for me. [Host: Mr. Stermer] Gentlemen, do either of you have a story about assessing the staff when you first showed up? [Guest: MAJ Perez] so, I'll jump in. When I was moving into position, I got a phone call during PCS (permanent change of station)leave that said, hey, man, we're going to NTC in 60 days. 00;05;13;26 - 00;05;39;07 [Guest: MAJ Perez] So we arrived and I jumped into a staff-ex with crew gunnery and a S3 shop and staff that had just gone through a summer transition period. So we were continually arriving lieutenants at the same time that we're trying to train the staff. We'd lost most of the trained staff officers, or we're in the process of losing most of the trained staff officers, either due to position changes, REFRADS or PCS. 00;05;39;07 - 00;05;56;23 [Guest: MAJ Perez] So we really didn't have an opportunity to assess the staff writ large, especially the operations staff. At that point, our training was really much more rote and we're going to show you how we're going to do this. And then kind of leader lead was able to really lean on my assistant S3 at the time, really strong Captain, Fantastic dude. 00;05;56;23 - 00;06;18;10 [Guest: MAJ Perez] And he really pulled help pull the S3 shop through a lot of turmoil, everything that was going on. Because considering that deployment, the NTC was a true EDRE (Emergency Deployment Readiness Exercise) . I think to my knowledge, the first ABCT (Armor Brigade Combat Team) in FORSCOM history. So that was, that was a different experience. I don't know from the XO perspective, Ron, what you what did you think about reassessing that staff? 00;06;18;13 - 00;06;42;26 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Yeah, obviously we played this game together. That was a challenging and unique time because I had been sitting in the S3 and the XO role that the AS3 you mentioned, you know, had basically been the S3 for the previous 60 days. I knew where he was because I had worked for him. We had soft fired our S4 to go take a company command, but that was really a benefit to us at the battalion level to have him move out. 00;06;42;26 - 00;07;03;16 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So I got to take some of the people that I had trained as operations officers and redistribute them into the staff in other roles. So it gave us a great opportunity to rebalance where the staff was at. We put a very strong individual into the S4 role, which paid immense dividends for us. As much as he hated that, that I did that to him. 00;07;03;18 - 00;07;21;19 [Guest: MAJ Rice] At the same time, we had some major gaps in our swing going into NTC and one that hurt us and one that I felt like I could have done a much better job handling was our signal shop was atrocious. We had a young first lieutenant that was serving as an S6. He had no business being in that job. 00;07;21;20 - 00;07;41;15 [Guest: MAJ Rice] There was no way to replace him. And it was kind of one of those where, looking back now on it, I was worried about other problems within NTC, and when we got into an environment where comms became a critical capability, I wish I had leaned more heavily into that. And that was a lesson learned for me. Coming out of there was, this is a problem and I'm going to have to devote attention to it. 00;07;41;15 - 00;07;57;24 [Guest: MAJ Rice] But overall, the I mean, the rest of the staff going into that rotation, an extremely unique challenge that I don't think any of us were prepared for. I mean, to include our brand new battalion commander. He took command in four weeks later, was in the box at NTC with the unit that had just been in the box at NTC less than six months prior. 00;07;57;26 - 00;08;15;00 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Lots of unique challenges. [Guest: MAJ Foy] Yeah, I was just going to say, I think, you know, the common theme here is we talk about gapping, and I think that's a common flavor for us. Field grades. You know, when the movement cycle hits and we get brought down to the battalion level, you're usually replacing somebody that's already moved on to the next job. 00;08;15;00 - 00;08;52;19 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So there's a hole there and you're trying to figure out your organization. Definitely. To Ron's point, take a moment, assess where you're at. It's also hard when you become the Battalion S-3. Your shop is a constant revolving door for everybody kind of leaving and going through the battalion. A lot of times we build systems at that level to to handle certain problems, and we do it because of the personnel personalities or strengths or weaknesses and really think about what I tried to build when I came down to the battalion level was a system that was separate from the people and that could be operated with that in mind. 00;08;52;22 - 00;09;12;21 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And that was like probably the hardest challenge that I did in the first 60 days was because I didn't know who I was going to have because the unit was coming back from deployment. I was sent down to the battalion. They were about 30 days out from coming back from Germany, and then they were going on another 30 days of leave. 00;09;12;23 - 00;09;30;27 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So I just had the ready reserve people that were going to be there. But I knew talking to the XO, talking to the battalion commander, that everybody was now about to switch. Hey, I have you guys now, but you're not necessarily going to be here in less than 60 days, and I'm going to have a whole new crop of people. 00;09;30;27 - 00;09;49;02 [Guest: MAJ Foy] What I need to do is be flexible in my system. When I build it, because change is coming. And then too, it's got to keep operating to feed the beast. [Guest: MAJ Rice] As a field grade officer, one of the most important things you can do is you have to show up and you have to you have to put on the face. 00;09;49;02 - 00;10;12;12 [Guest: MAJ Rice] No matter what's going on. Joe can attest to this because obviously we were, you know, in a battalion and we had battle buddy relationship is field grade officers where we would walk outside and it's everything's doom and gloom in the sky as crashing rush is on in Ukraine and we're like 300 miles away and, but the end of the day, like, you've got to, got to wake up and roll out of bed and you go do PT and everything hurts. 00;10;12;14 - 00;10;31;25 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And then you have to walk in front of the staff at whatever your first morning sink is, and they have to look at you and realize, like, hey, this guy's committed. He's all in. And like, I want to follow that person. I want to work on this organization because the leaders that I work for are dedicated to the mission, the organization and the people. 00;10;31;25 - 00;10;50;10 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Maybe you got to hide that deep down inside, because being a field grade officer and KD time is a grind. Being an iron major is hard. And if I can tell all the young field grade officers and company, great officers who are going to go do this, just remember, KD, time will end and it's okay. But you also have to put on the face as you grind through it like it. 00;10;50;13 - 00;11;08;19 [Guest: MAJ Rice] It is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done in my career. 00;11;08;20 - 00;11;22;03 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And there's a lot of dark humor and jokes that go around in a combat unit. But at the end of the day, you got to wake up and you got to show your people. Yeah, things are really hard. I'm going to be there to coach and mentor you so that you can continue to improve in your career, but at the same time, we're all going to get through this together. 00;11;22;05 - 00;11;38;26 [Host: Mr. Stermer] We've had a great conversation so far about how you assess and build the staff. I'd like to talk about your relationship with the companies. Charlie, I want to get you to start off on this one. Talk about how you build relationship with the company command teams and how you get their inputs to support what you're trying to do as a staff officer. 00;11;38;29 - 00;12;01;20 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Yeah. So two ways that I went about doing this. One was I left my office, go down to the company troop area, go even, just sit in the company commander's office and just have a dialog with them. Doesn't always have to be about work. That'll be the bridge and the key to getting them to update. In my mind, Staff has kind of multiple bosses, right? 00;12;01;20 - 00;12;32;05 [Guest: MAJ Foy] You solve the brigade's problem, set the battalion level. You work for your battalion commander so it can lead the formation. But at the same time, you got to ask yourself, what have I done today for those company commands to make their jobs as easy as possible to go out and solve our problems as the battalion. Right. So it's kind of one of those things where you have to get them on board so that they take care of the battalion so that you're OER (officer evaluation report) kind of get writes itself because, hey, that battalion so squared away, go find your captains, your commanders down there, the XOS. 00;12;32;05 - 00;12;52;04 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Just talk to them and build a personal relationship with them and you'll get a lot more perspective of what's working well in the battalion and what's not working well. The second thing is, when you kind of hit your big milestone training events, whether that's gunnery, platoon live fires, company Cal faxes, NTC rotations, things like that. 00;12;52;06 - 00;13;21;01 [Guest: MAJ Foy] When you're building those plans, a lot of times we have a tendency just to gather the staff together, build the plan, and then back to the battalion, to the company command teams, and then you pitch it out and they shoot a whole bunch of holes. I don't like this. I don't do that. And then, you know, the 6 to 6 conversation, happens and as tight as you are with your battalion commander, a 6 to 6 conversation has a lot more weight some time then, you know, the two feel grades do with the boss. 00;13;21;03 - 00;13;52;18 [Guest: MAJ Foy] If you can bring them in early and say, hey, here's what I'm thinking and get those inputs early. Enough of having the ground truth of what the actual limitations are on the ground. You'll build a better plan to start off with, and then they've already seen it. They've already got input into the planning process. So now when you pitch a product to them, more on board with the product and how it's going to flow than they would have been if you had just kind of kept them in the dark and said, here's the WARNORD (warning order). 00;13;52;18 - 00;14;10;25 [Guest: MAJ Foy] here's your OPORDER brief. What questions do you have? And then, you know, you spend an hour in the conference room where everybody's like, how do you want me to do that, sir? Like, I only have 15 guys or whatever. those two ways. For me, I found great success in that of kind of supporting the companies of, hey, what do you what are you trying to do? 00;14;10;27 - 00;14;31;11 [Guest: MAJ Foy] There's always whitespace somewhere on the calendar. And we have a really bad habit in the army of, hey, we got to fill this with something, right? You have that opportunity instead of being like, well, you know, DTMS (digital training management system) is showing, like, hey, we are really crappy on our qualifications. Like, I'm going to schedule, you know, range week here and do this, right. 00;14;31;13 - 00;14;57;12 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Sometimes it's better to just hate to take that pause. Hey, what do you guys want to do here? And then get that fill in there and then it makes it a little bit easier to that. You also want to make an environment where your company commanders aren't afraid to come into your office to talk to you. Okay. [Guest: MAJ Perez] And your first sergeants 100% [Guest: MAJ Foy] if those command teams don't feel comfortable just walking into the to the 3-shop to to shoot what's up and how how's everything going? 00;14;57;14 - 00;15;31;22 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Like you're failing. And in my opinion. [Guest: MAJ Rice] I would I would just add to that, Charlie, that not only should they be able to walk into your office and have the conversation with you about, hey, I want to talk work, but making yourself available to them, talk about other things that are also important to them. You know, for me, I tried to build relationships with the company commanders where, hey, if you need to talk about career advice or you want to come in and talk about your career track, or you're thinking about something different that you know isn't the golden path to get you to become a general officer, but it's something that's personally important to 00;15;31;22 - 00;15;50;14 [Guest: MAJ Rice] you or professionally that you want to go do come, come have a conversation with me. I started off my career in the Army in third ID, and I had a Squadron XO and a Squadron S3 who were absolutely terrifying individuals. Every lieutenant inside of the squadron was afraid to run into these to what we consider to be angry, bald men. 00;15;50;14 - 00;16;15;07 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And as a angry bald man myself, I intentionally tried to not have that that personality meant to be open and accessible, especially to the company commanders. I lost out because those that XO and that field grade great both went on to be very successful tactical battalion commanders. One of them commanded a ABCT. They ended up being great mentors for people, but none of us wanted that because they really weren't accessible at that point in their career, because they were fitting a caricature of the iron Major. 00;16;15;07 - 00;16;35;08 [Guest: MAJ Rice] They were the squadron commanders, hatchet men, and they really weren't that way. It was just we were in Iraq. It was a personification of like what we had to do in a combat zone. I would recommend never, ever fit a role and take a characteristic that isn't your actual personality as a field grade officer. Just be your authentic self, who you are and then be approachable to your people. 00;16;35;11 - 00;16;55;00 [Host Mr. Stermer] And sometimes, as we talked earlier in their mentorship, that's not something that they see. So you been able to sit down and have a conversation about that regardless of what path they ended up choosing, but to be able to provide that experience is one of the things that they probably most need when they come into your office. So speaking of relationships with the company, obviously HHC and your Forward support company (FSC) are a little bit different. 00;16;55;00 - 00;17;20;12 [Host Mr. Stermer] You all being combat arms officers. Talk about the relationship with those two companies. [Guest: Maj Perez] I'll start with the HHC because I think that's the one that a lot of people struggle with the most, especially on staff. As an S3, it's it's fairly straightforward, but as an XO, you really have to manage that relationship where your staff officers, they see the XO as their boss, they see the battalion commander is their commander, but you still have to manage that relationship with HHC. 00;17;20;12 - 00;17;42;10 [Guest: Maj Perez] I think one of the most important things you can do is sit down early on in your tenure as the XO with the HHC command team and clearly outline what your expectations are and develop that working relationship. I always told the first Sergeant whenever we got a new first sergeant in is, hey, if you ever get pushback from the staff, your first stop is me. 00;17;42;11 - 00;17;58;15 [Guest: Maj Perez] And I would tell all of my new staff officers that when First sergeant tells you to do something, you do it. It's not, oh, I don't have to. It's not. Oh, I'm busy. If the first sergeant or the company commander is telling you they need you to knock out an admin requirement, it's not an option. You're coming back, you're doing it. 00;17;58;17 - 00;18;25;03 [Guest: Maj Perez] But then you also have to set that expectation. The company's doing the PT test. XO, you're out there and then when your insert staff shop OIC isn't there because they don't think that it's important is important to them. You not only are you're demonstrating that, but you're that reinforcing fire. One of the things I always tried to do to help my first sergeant, too, was had my S-1 establish a IPPSA approval chain for my staff that when that came through me. 00;18;25;03 - 00;18;39;06 [Guest: Maj Perez] So that way when S1 is I'll pick on him. You know S1 does his leave request. If they don't see that it's come through the XO already, they kick it back and then they call me and I go down like, Hey what are you doing, man? You got to push this stuff through me. The FSC, I think it's a little bit different. 00;18;39;13 - 00;18;57;17 [Guest: Maj Perez] Where is you are at least in the cab. Is or the, you know, the combat arms formation, be it calves, squadron, infantry battalion, whatever. You're that formation that the FSC really wants to help and support. But then at the major level, or helping the FSC to manage their relationship with their parent unit, that's that conversation among majors, right. 00;18;57;17 - 00;19;15;23 [Guest: Maj Perez] You got to go back to the BSB, XO and say, hey, I'm getting this from my FSC. Grizzly six is telling me this, what's the deal, man? And then you can kind of have that negotiation at the major level and then take something back. But what you what you absolutely can't do is have that antagonistic relationship between the two. 00;19;15;25 - 00;19;30;25 [Guest: Maj Perez] Your FSC commander comes up and says, hey, BSB, tell me I got to do this. And you can't just be like, no, absolutely not. You're not doing that. I don't care what they say. It's you have to manage that relationship very well. [Guest: Maj Rice] And it's not just managing the relationship. You have to build that relationship with the BSB. 00;19;30;25 - 00;19;55;29 [Guest: Maj Rice] Logisticians see the world in an entirely different light than combat arms do, and they have their requirements and their metrics and the things that keep them awake at night that are different overlap generally with what Combat Arms guys think about. But overall there is a different mindset there. And one of the things I think that I did that was very helpful for me as an XO was I had a great relationship with the SPO, I had a great relationship with the BSB, XO. 00;19;55;29 - 00;20;15;13 [Guest: Maj Rice] I built a relationship with the BSB Battalion Commander. Yep, And going out of my way to get to know that individual paid huge dividends for me because it was a situation where I never had to circumvent his XO or try to go around the SPO or do anything like that. At the end of the day, he would hear, hey, X Battalion is trying to do this. 00;20;15;13 - 00;20;29;14 [Guest: Maj Rice] There's, you know, a conflict with what we've tasked the FCC to do and what they're trying to do. And he turn around and be like, I know Ron, I know what he's trying to do. He's not trying to game the FSC or screw anybody over. XO. Go talk to him. Just see what it is and then see if we can support it. 00;20;29;14 - 00;20;52;03 [Guest: Maj Rice] And that personal relationship that I was able to cultivate with the commander of that organization was, was huge for me for like two years. [Host: Mr. Stermer] Yeah, that's interesting. You talk about, combat arms, guys working in or girls working in maneuver units. You know, they have a vision on how the relationships work and those organizations, and you think, hey, well, the for the Brigade S4, we'll put something in the order. 00;20;52;05 - 00;21;16;04 [Host: Mr. Stermer] That's how it's going to be. Were if you actually understand how the support battalion works, it's really the SPO managing those things, building those relationships between the XO, the S3, the SPO and the support battalion can pay huge dividends throughout, and it's just something you don't see in the line and block charts. And that normal organization understanding and certainly can be lost if you spent your entire time as a platoon leader or a company commander in a line unit, and you didn't weren't really having to deal with those things. 00;21;16;04 - 00;21;36;28 [Host: Mr. Stermer] But once you jump into that XO S3 job, if you don't figure that out pretty quick, you're going to be struggle. One of the things that you mentioned there, in terms of those informal relationships kind of informing you about your job, let's talk about the Ops sergeant major. How did he help you in your different positions in terms of understanding things that were being put out that you thought were very clear, but maybe companies didn't understand the same way. 00;21;36;28 - 00;22;01;25 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Through his feedback with First Sergeants. Ron. [Guest: MAJ Rice] Oh, I was gonna let y'all go, because I have all kinds of weird stories about Ops Sergeant Majors.[Guest: MAJ Perez] You're the only one that had a ops sergeant major. [Guest: MAJ Rice] Yeah. So, staff sergeant ops Sergeant Major Dempsey was a phenomenal human being. Still is. He's a great leader in the army. I was very lucky as a three compared to the other two gentlemen sitting here, because I actually got a sergeant major from the Sergeant Major Academy. 00;22;01;25 - 00;22;35;03 [Guest: MAJ Rice] At one point, I looked at my sergeant major, and the first day he showed up, pulled him in, mispronounced his last name, and then was immediately corrected and built a personal relationship from that point. Again, personal relationships, in my opinion, are one of the most important and powerful things that you can build as a field grade officer. There's so much work that you'll never be able to do all by yourself, or be able to strong arm people to do around you, Brad and I, because I'll just use his first name, ended up being very closely aligned in how we saw operations for the battalion. 00;22;35;03 - 00;22;57;14 [Guest: MAJ Rice] We generally thought along the same lines as how we should execute stuff. He was a very no, no fluff kind of individual when it came to stuff. I would come to him with plans and he'd be like, hey sir, cut this out. That's dumb. And I used him as a sounding board and a refining agent for how I thought we should do operations, and I did that before I would take things to the battalion commander personally. 00;22;57;14 - 00;23;09;04 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Him and I are. We're actually still very close friends. We ended up being neighbors, and he lived down the street from me. There were also conversations where I'd be like walking the dogs, and I see him in the front yard and I'm like, hey, I just got an email or text message from boss. What do you think about this? 00;23;09;04 - 00;23;27;20 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Leverage them, use them, and be thankful if you actually have an ops sergeant major, because most of the time that I've seen that role has been filled by a sergeant first class at best, if you're very lucky, you'll have a former first sergeant who may be filling that role, which Joe you had that opportunity for a while. 00;23;27;23 - 00;23;51;17 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Yeah. As a three, I think I went through five distinct individuals that were filling the up the ops sergeant major role. We had a, sergeant major who, due to some surgery and PCS time on the books. We had him on and off for a few months. I had Staff Sergeant who was absolutely fantastic was a solve the problem, get it done kind of guy. 00;23;51;17 - 00;24;21;19 [Guest: MAJ Perez] But, you know, at the end of the day, nothing against him from a training standpoint is staff sergeant. So we had to do a lot of coaching, teaching, mentoring. But at that point you're using that individual as a ops NCO and less as an ops sergeant major. And there really is a distinction there. The management of tasks, the tracking of tasks, vice, the more sergeant major role of, you know, that senior enlisted advisor that, you know, bringing recommendations to the to the table. 00;24;21;19 - 00;24;47;06 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Not to say that that Sergeant Dempsey didn't bring great recommendations to the table, but we were using him more in a, in a role of management. We spent a little bit more time kind of teaching and using that opportunity to groom him. So getting him integrated into things like planning processes, hey, here's the MDMP handbook. Here's how we do training management and getting him outside of that company view and really looking into that. 00;24;47;06 - 00;25;06;16 [Guest: MAJ Perez] But again, in NCOs that are not formally trained. So there is that learning aspect to it. [Guest: MAJ Foy] I would like to focus on two things. You know, where do you want to place your energy and your ops? Sergeant major is a good place as a battalion three to put, a good bit of your energy to develop that individual. 00;25;06;23 - 00;25;26;25 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Probably their first time being at that battalion level staff. So, you know, as a new three spend that energy there and kind of shape that relationship to how you want it. We like to think that the ops sergeant major and the S3, that's the battle buddy equation. And then you go to the field and you realize your Ops Sergeant major lives with the XO. 00;25;26;27 - 00;25;50;22 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And when you're back in garrison, yes, he works next to you, but really, he kind of picks up whatever CSM you know, has him or her too. You kind of get in this big five. Everybody's got an connecting relationship and it's not just a one pair. Hey this is my guy don't touch them type thing. So it's definitely a whole entity process to kind of build that 00;25;50;22 - 00;26;18;26 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Ops Sergeant major role. The second thing that I would like to offer is as you kind of build that relationship with like to think, hey, this is the Sergeant Majors Lane, this is the S3 lane, this is CSM Lane, this is the XO's lane. It's not clear cut like that. So as you kind of go through and you're building those relationships to work, what I would tell my NCO was that were on the ops sergeant major role, you're me were the same coin. 00;26;18;28 - 00;26;47;12 [Guest: MAJ Foy] There is no NCO officer business. There's just leadership business. And it's imperative that whatever I know is going on in the brigade and in the battalion at the company levels and whatever, you know, going on all those levels, they're the same for either of us. So that if I'm ever out of the office or I'm over here taking care of something, you already know what I know from our last touchpoint, and you can now effectively engage on that. 00;26;47;14 - 00;27;04;23 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And you will have my support when you make a decision. And I'm not in the room. And, you know, we can talk about it afterwards. And like, maybe if it was the wrong decision, we'll figure out how to get it back on track. But like that's the empowerment that you need to give to your OPs SGM to have that freedom. 00;27;04;23 - 00;27;35;19 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And it's not just, hey, I do the task tracker and the troops to task lists and make sure the talk gets set up like he's got a much bigger role in the battalion then those things. Right. Definitely build that relationship. And definitely I would say spend some energy and getting that role fulfilled. Because when you don't have somebody in that ops sergeant major role, that'll be a hindrance to you or as people kind of come and go. 00;27;35;19 - 00;28;02;02 [Guest: MAJ Foy] I said it earlier on in the S3 role, it's kind of a revolving door in that job, you definitely that's like the place where as you build the system, spend that time there because it'll pay dividends. [Guest: MAJ Rice] So to pull on kind of a thread, you also mentioned Charlie is utilizing that ops sergeant major in the planning role, and not just having him or her be a part of the planning, but leveraging that individual and their experience to pull in 00;28;02;02 - 00;28;20;06 [Guest: MAJ Rice] your NCOIC is out of your individual staff section shops. This is something I did a terrible job at, and I felt like I got a little bit better towards the end as an XO, but I did, and as a three, I did a horrendously terrible job at this. I did not leverage the experience of the NCOs that I had inside the individual sections. 00;28;20;10 - 00;28;57;10 [Guest: MAJ Rice] This S1 NCOIC was just the S1 NCOIC, and you know, she did a specific job and when it came to like Indian time, she wasn't that same for the S6 and CIC and the S4 in CIC. They were doing maintenance or doing flip calls or there was always a reason for them not to be there. And we did MDMP and as a learning organization and learning staff, if I could go back and do it again, I would absolutely pull those NCOs in, because they have vastly different experiences and would have absolutely increased the capability of the organization if I to use that, and pulling the ops sergeant major in to help you 00;28;57;10 - 00;29;22;02 [Guest: MAJ Rice] be that tool to pull those sometimes senior NCO, sometimes, you know, staff sergeants filling a role that is above their pay grade, having that individual help pull them along in that process would be hugely beneficial. [Guest: MAJ Perez] Absolutely. I think the other thing, too, is using your off sergeant major to reframe the role of the NCO on staff in this in the sense that, you know, let's talk about the NCOs. 00;29;22;02 - 00;29;42;03 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Are the 3-shop, most of them, if you're if you're in the armor community, you're in the ABCT, you've got 1 or 2 staff sergeants, maybe Sergeant first class and the 3-shop that are master gunners, those soldiers, those ensues, except that, you know, they're going to be on staff and they they're motivated to do a good job writ large 00;29;42;05 - 00;30;01;10 [Guest: MAJ Perez] the other NCO in the shop probably feel they're there because they're being punished. Highly unlikely that they are, but they're, they're there they don't want to be there. But using your sergeant major or your sergeant major to not only get the right ensues into the three shop that have that ability to support planning, but also to coach and mentor them. 00;30;01;10 - 00;30;29;21 [Guest: MAJ Perez] That being in the 3-shop is actually career and professionally enhancing. Doing that good work in the three shop and understanding how the battalion thinks and plans helps Sergeant First Class Perez when he goes back to the Army, because now, not only does he understand the platoon's role in the battalion, but he also understands the battalion's role and what the battalion is thinking, and how the interplay between the various units within the battalion is affecting the outcome of the mission. 00;30;29;26 - 00;30;51;14 [Guest: MAJ Perez] And that also doesn't go just for the NCOs either. Charlie, you mentioned how many lieutenants you got in the three shop that that 3-shop is oftentimes a recent BOLC (basic officer leaders course) graduates excellent opportunity for, sergeant majors. And as well to pull in that young lieutenant. And hey, let's talk about how are you going to utilize your NCO. How are you going to council them? 00;30;51;14 - 00;31;11;19 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Well, how will I know if I have an NCO at the start doing their job? And that's a great opportunity to start shaping that and informing your young officers of the capabilities and expectations of the noncommissioned officer that they're about to be working with. [Host: Mr. Stermer] We mentioned the big five, the battalion commander, XO, S-3, command sergeant major of Sergeant Major. 00;31;11;19 - 00;31;29;03 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Do any of you have any stories about where that relationship worked? Really well and it benefited you, or a story that you want to share with the audience about where it was dysfunctional for a little bit, and then you figured out a way to kind of get over that, that challenge. [Guest: MAJ Foy] Yeah, I'll definitely start off on this one. 00;31;29;05 - 00;31;57;06 [Guest: MAJ Foy] When I went out, I had, an initial run in, with, with one of my CSMs and this relationship where we didn't get off on to until the right foot as the XO, you know, the chief of staff, you're on the staff, right? And the CSM said, hey, this one's mine. Really? What it just took was sitting down and saying, okay, let's put both of our prides aside and kind of figure out, how do we really want this relationship to work. 00;31;57;13 - 00;32;27;03 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Yes, you absolutely have a tremendous role and you are the CSM, right. And you get to lay out your expectations. But that doesn't say that you get to steamroll me and my plans. Like we have to sync this together through a couple hard conversations, which I wish I had had earlier on, which would have avoided this whole problem, would have set a much better relationship off the get go I offer 00;32;27;03 - 00;32;48;05 [Guest: MAJ Foy] that is, we think, you know, if you follow the line-wire diagram of who works for who and how things are, really go, but in practice it's not really that way. The second thing is, is and you know, I kind of mentioned this before. You know, the big five. Like everybody kind of bleeds into another sphere and responsibility that we each hold. 00;32;48;10 - 00;33;11;26 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So the battalion commander can say, hey, you know, XO, S3, this is where you guys own it. XO you own the staff. But S3, everything's an operation, right? So then now who's really getting the tail pinned on them for who's responsible? What people don't really realize is, is how the battalion and brigade headquarters are usually set up. 00;33;11;28 - 00;33;37;03 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So you get a wing where usually the battalion commander, the XO and the CSM, with all the good ideas kind of flow and all the guidance gets kind of like brought out of there and then off at the complete opposite end, wing floor, whatever you have the S3 and the Ops sergeant major kind of living and working and grinding, you got to have more than just the daily meeting touch points, with these people. 00;33;37;03 - 00;34;03;16 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So as many times as you can to go over and just pop in and see, hey, what's, what's going on, what's the flavor? So that those are kind of the things that I would say. [Guest: MAJ Rice] I would add. So if you find yourself in an environment where and actually really every environment's this way, everybody has different personalities, nobody in a battalion top five or any organization is going to sync up and see things eye to eye. 00;34;03;16 - 00;34;32;19 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Ideologically, the same. It's just not how the nature of the Army works. Because we are a people organization. We are all typically, especially in the combat arms realm, very proud people. We have put ourselves into a profession where being the best is kind of ingrained into us at like the base level. It is important for us, and being wrong is something that is catastrophically unacceptable for most of us, at least in our minds. 00;34;32;19 - 00;34;51;14 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And so for me, I would add on to is being able to be humble enough to swallow your pride one to be wrong, or two to just agree with somebody that their position is different than yours, and you may not agree with it for the sake of the organization in the team. That's the course of action you're going to execute. 00;34;51;16 - 00;35;12;09 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And obviously the commander holds command discretion. The commander gets to have the final arbitration and say, and, you know, usually his or her opinion is what is going to be the decision inside of the rest of the top five with the battalion CSM and the officer major, the three and the XO in that relationship. Sometimes you just get to sit down and you got to hash things out. 00;35;12;09 - 00;35;34;20 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I went and I had to have a couple conversations with my battalion CSM as an XO was like, hey, you just directed an ordered my staff officer to do this. That is in direct conflict with the guidance that I've given them. We had a couple heated words with one another and we agreed to disagree. And then at that point I looked at my I was like, we're going to do it your way. 00;35;34;23 - 00;36;10;03 [Guest: MAJ Rice] It's not what I want to do, but I think that what you were trying to do is getting to the same end-state that I want. Sometimes even between field grade, you're going to have disagreements a personal story. I don't even remember what we were arguing about, Joe. I don't know either. We were in Germany and we were doing something, and it may have been Easter egg hunt, I don't know, I think it was, we had to find a large amount of unaccounted for brass across Graf heavier training area and how we thought to go about doing this operation on Easter Sunday came across with multiple different courses of action, and we had not 00;36;10;03 - 00;36;33;24 [Guest: MAJ Rice] pitched them to the commander yet. And one of them I found to be absolutely unacceptable and unfeasible. And Joe thought that was the way we should do it. And him and I ended up having a louder than I would have probably liked to have conversation and an open forum. And I remember about five minutes into him, I'm like, wow, we're yelling at each other in front of 90% of the staff. 00;36;33;27 - 00;37;07;25 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And I'm like, this is, this is Mommy and Daddy fighting. I stopped and I literally just walked away and I swallowed my pride and I think I walked out like five minutes later, I was like, okay, we're going to do it your way. We found the brass. Yeah, because we collected stuff from like, World War Two. At the end of the day, like it was a situation where personalities conflict, the organization has to be successful whether or not your pride gets in the way of that. 00;37;07;27 - 00;37;26;20 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Absolutely. I think this is a it's also a great opportunity to talk about self-awareness. You absolutely can't do this job if you don't understand what your own triggers are. So understanding what's going to get you fired up. If you watch the top five, the members of your top five, you can see what people start to do when they get agitated. 00;37;26;22 - 00;37;51;15 [Guest: MAJ Perez] You can see what they start to do when they get frustrated and understanding. When you're having an argument or a disagreement, that's going to come to a less than ideal solution, just really, because at a bull headedness, if CSM is over there and he's getting twitchy and you can tell they're starting to get agitated, it's probably a good time to just hey, let's reconvene on this. 00;37;51;17 - 00;38;06;03 [Guest: MAJ Perez] You know, let's go talk about go grab a cup of coffee. Let's change the scenery. Let's de-escalate a little bit and reengage, because eventually people are just going to start being unproductive on that. 00;38;06;05 - 00;38;30;22 [Host: Mr. Stermer] All right. Well, we've talked a little bit about the staff or relationships amongst both internal and external organizations. I think we're going to kind of transition here and we're going to really focus on tactical operations. Having been out in several deployments, CTC rotations, I had two of you currently working at the Mission Command training program. and one of you working at CALL, I think this is a great chance for us to start talking about staff processes and how those feel grades are going to lead those processes. 00;38;30;22 - 00;38;56;12 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Looking back, running estimates, how are you using run announcements to inform the commander about what's going on in the fight, whether the plans progressing correctly, are you getting to those objectives that you need to talk a little bit about, either what you learned at the time or what you can look at backwards and say, this is how I should do these things more effectively in order to form the commander about the things that we need to do to be successful. 00;38;56;14 - 00;39;21;14 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So I would start off with proposing that when you sit down in the chair in a new job, you need to pull out the SOP at whatever organizational level you were working at and actually read that document and then change it or recommend changing it to whoever the appropriate authority is. A lot of times we will hand wave SOPs and say we have them so that we can get a check box before we go to the National Training Center. 00;39;21;14 - 00;39;42;16 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And we say we had it. And then if you go back and read that document, it's not aligned with the systems and processes that you actually are utilizing in your organization. And so I say that because we had an SOP at the battalion when I was in S3, and it distinctly talked about staff running estimates, and it did not align with how we actually conduct those estimates inside the battalion. 00;39;42;20 - 00;40;03;05 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And it created confusion because you get the you get the one high speed lieutenant, who'd show up, find an SOP on the share drive, read it, and then be very confused when we went to, you know, conduct a FTX. And it's like, well, this isn't what the SOP said. So read the SOP, understand what's in it, and then actually change it to support the process that needs to be in place for the organization. 00;40;03;08 - 00;40;26;26 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I say that having failed to do that as a Battalion S-3 got better at it as a Battalion XO, but as an OC/T for MCTP, I've seen from the theater Army level down all the way to the division where staff struggle in order to manage the processes, either because they don't understand the process or they haven't read the SOP, or they don't have an SOP. 00;40;26;27 - 00;40;54;20 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And those things will set the foundation for how you can actually conduct those level of operations. [Host: Mr. Stermer] I think you guys being at MCTP, you definitely see that if you have a good SOP, it makes everything more efficient. It makes everything easier and faster. And when we get in those time constrained environments without an SOP, it's almost impossible to do any sort of staff estimates or planning in a in a short environment. 00;40;54;22 - 00;41;18;14 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Yeah. And I think there's a second flavor to that. It's not just understanding the SOP, but it's understanding how your boss receives the information, whether working on a division staff, corps staff, brigade staff or the battalion staff, you have to understand how the boss is going to make decisions and how he needs to receive that information in order to make those decisions. 00;41;18;16 - 00;41;43;04 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Or whoever the audience is, based on the decision maker. Because as you kind of go up in echelons, there's going to be different roles of who can actually make what decisions off that authority matrix. Yes. Understand the SOP, understand how your boss needs to get his information, and what his products are. And then focus those changes in the SOP to meet that. 00;41;43;04 - 00;42;03;07 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Because what you're going to find is, hey, my boss really likes a fight card, and that's what lives in his book in the tactical realm. And that's what we need to build our running estimates to constantly update so that when I print it off three times a day and stick it in his book, he has the latest and greatest information. 00;42;03;07 - 00;42;29;03 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And it's not a wasted effort by the staff producing products and getting information that isn't necessarily required for the fight it hit. So once you can kind of discern what is actually needed, then you can go back and kind of refine that SOP to kind of make that happen. And that's going to be the hardest challenge is understanding how does your boss receive information. 00;42;29;03 - 00;42;53;11 [Guest: MAJ Foy] You know, it's having two different commanders. One was absolutely needed to have everything's pristine on the PowerPoint and the product given to him because he couldn't get past that you used Times New Roman instead of Ariel on the slide deck versus another boss who was like, just give me the information as long as I have it, I can visualize that fight that way. 00;42;53;11 - 00;43;18;12 [Guest: MAJ Foy] That'll drive the efficiency in the staff as you build the products going forward. So that now you don't kind of burn the staff out. [Guest: MAJ Rice] You jog my thought process a little bit with that. Charlie, define what your staff running estimate actually is as a product. A lot of times because of how we teach young officers and our military, most of us think of a staff running estimate is a quad chart. 00;43;18;17 - 00;43;39;15 [Guest: MAJ Rice] It's a piece of paper, and I write some facts, assumptions. I write some, like constrain points and I throw stuff at it. And there's, you know, there's goodness in that at the individual level for probably the staff officer trying to produce it. But ultimately, like what is the commander using as a staff running estimate is really the what we refer to is, is war fighting products. 00;43;39;15 - 00;44;06;26 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So what is what is that commanding general all the way down to a battalion commander sticking in his notebook. And he's walking into a meeting and he's looking at this, you know, information that's important to him that he's ultimately going to use in order to make decisions for the organization based on the plan and the MDMP process. Most of the time, young company, great officers have no concept that that's really what a staff estimate is. 00;44;06;28 - 00;44;37;25 [Guest: MAJ Rice] They're just building a single slide PowerPoint with a quad chart on it. That's not really what it needs to be. [Host; Mr. Stermer] And we've talked right now up to this point about supporting the commander. But when you're the XO in S3, you're also supporting the staff and the understanding of the staff. So are there additional tools that you found to be the most critical in a combined arms battalion and maneuver unit to help the staff understand what's going on, so that they can figure out what's important to the commander? 00;44;37;28 - 00;44;54;25 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I would say the most important thing is stay up longer than any of them do and work harder than all of them do. Because I'm just kidding. No realistically, training individuals on how to use the tools and the systems that provide you the data that you need is probably the best thing that I was capable of doing. 00;44;55;02 - 00;45;23;10 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So when I took over as the XO, you'll hear a recurring theme because all armor formations go through this, but maintenance is a significant challenge. We had a group of young officers who were capable of doing their job as company XOS, but they were not proficient in understanding the logistics systems that drove the maintenance process. And so, you know, I had to become very good at reading in ESR (equipment status report) and in such. 00;45;23;10 - 00;45;45;24 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I trained them to becoming very good at reading and ESR, but I also had to teach them where does this come from? So like G Army drives a lot of the things. Now some of us that are older remember PBUES and some other systems, they're ultimately there are a myriad of data sets that are out there. And the Army's, you know, trying to consolidate all this into like a single pane of glass, type concept. 00;45;45;26 - 00;46;00;23 [Guest: MAJ Rice] But where do you go and how do you utilize that system to pull the data that you need at your level? Who's never been trained to do that as a company level officer? Because you're probably an infantry or an armor officer in a combined arms battalion, or insert whatever formation you may be in. You know, they didn't teach you as a cadet. 00;46;01;00 - 00;46;18;29 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Get on, you know, G Army and look up where the shipping data label for enhanced fire control unit is inside of the entire logistics systems in the United States Army. That's the most important thing you need, because that tank isn't going to ever shoot until you put it in there. And the battalion commanders, you know, crushing somebody on why this thing doesn't work. 00;46;18;29 - 00;46;49;19 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I use I use logistics and maintenance as an example because I focused heavily on that. But another perfect example is for the S1. Like if they are not capable and proficient in using IPPSA, they'll never be able to do their job. Now they get a lot of training for that now. But when I was an XO, IPPSA was force wide rollout, so I had an S1 who didn't know how to use it, say Joe Filippi and I had to both become much smarter together on a process and a system that, you know, we didn't know the tools are there, some of them you end up developing yourself, whether you're going to build stuff in Excel 00;46;49;19 - 00;47;08;16 [Guest: MAJ Rice] spreadsheets, if you're computer science smart, you can do this thing and code and program like good on you. But the Army will provide you the tools. A lot of it's just going out and finding where they are and what makes them useful. [Guest: MAJ Perez] But I think too. So not only finding the products and finding the tools and how to do it, but in a tactical lens. 00;47;08;16 - 00;47;28;15 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Jeremy is you have to train the staff to communicate using a common language. And what are the things that we find is, you know, the if the S1 is saying, oh, sir, we're at 85% on 19 kilo turns and we're at 60% on 19 kilo 20. I had a battalion commander. They could do that math in his head. 00;47;28;17 - 00;47;52;16 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Drove me nuts. Most of us can't. How is that being translated? What is 80% 19 kilo tens translate to in a tactical setting? What that translates to is 28 of 32 M1's combat effective based on Manning. Then you talk to the S4 in the BMO and they say, hey, sir, we're at 85% on our M113 fleet. 00;47;52;18 - 00;48;17;04 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Okay. Well what does that equate to? Right. So if we're but if we train the staff to talk in a common language, effectively translated into something that is easily absorbed by the rest of the room, that's where you get that synergy. If the S2 is talking about, hey, we've got three enemy companies, everybody in the room can roughly make that equivalency, especially if we've trained the staff well. 00;48;17;06 - 00;48;39;08 [Guest: MAJ Perez] that they understand the enemy threat. Then when you say we've got three companies, that combat power immediately translates to something that is consumable to the S3-shop. It's consumable to the FSO. It's consumable to the S4 for ammo planning. If you're in the defense. Same thing with the S6. You start talking about, you know, how ferrous is the sand. 00;48;39;08 - 00;49;03;18 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Then the northern part of the training area at Fort Bliss. Like cool story man. Just tell me our FM radios are 85% effective. You know something that's consumable to the rest of the staff. [Guest: MAJ Foy] It's definitely talking the same language. Right? And that's a hard thing to do when you look across the staff and you look at the different personnel and their backgrounds and what they're Esmond. 00;49;03;18 - 00;49;30;18 [Guest: MAJ Foy] But I would say it's taking that common language and applying the analytics to it. So getting that junior staff to make the job of yes, I only have 50% fuel on hand right now. So, black if you will, on fuel. Well, you're not black on fuel. I guess you're due for a resupply, but I still have eight hours of continuous operations in the tank, because that's what that means. 00;49;30;18 - 00;49;47;16 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And then you can say, okay, what was the mission? Well, the mission is supposed to be done in three hours, and I only have five clicks to move to get it done. Hey, I just need to make sure I'm planning that resupply at the back end of that when we culminate, so that I can continue operations. And if you can get that staff to then talk about the so what? 00;49;47;16 - 00;50;19;02 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Rather than just the data and a running estimate, then you're in the right mark. They struggle with understanding the common operating picture. Across the board in that it's not just, hey, post the running estimate on the wall, right. And know where your forces are. It's, hey, these products that we need to get to the boss. This should be up on the board so that no matter who walks into that TOC, can understand the fight at a glance without anybody having to brief them. 00;50;19;04 - 00;50;55;18 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So if you looked up there and you said, okay, I have my maneuver graphics, I have my fires overlay, I have my enemy set temp overlay. Now, at a glance, I know my combat power, who's combat effective, who's not. I know when the next resupply is coming in. Like if I have those kinds of information now, it doesn't matter if the XOs sitting at the talk, the battalion commander coming in, or just somebody coming in off a shift, they can quickly absorb that information because the analytics have already been done on it, and they can know where they're at in time and space, so that if they have to make a decision, it 00;50;55;18 - 00;51;18;24 [Guest: MAJ Foy] can be made there on the spot. That's where you're going to see success. [Guest: MAJ Rice] There's so much data involved. And we talked about how, you know, you can't do it all. No matter, no matter how smart you are or how capable you are, you know, how do you as a field grade, start instilling in your young learning staff and your company great officers, some of who don't want to be in your shop because they want to be platoon leaders. 00;51;18;24 - 00;51;35;13 [Guest: MAJ Rice] How do you instill in them? I don't need just your data. I don't need you to just give me numbers. I need you to analyze this, and I need you to give me knowledge. I need you to get it to the point where I can give this product. And it's a refined assessment to the decision maker in the organization. 00;51;35;13 - 00;51;54;08 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Because ultimately, what are the products that any of the staff is building for commander? All of it drives decision points if you're data in, especially if it's garbage data and you're not going to get good decisions or the commander will be delayed in making those decisions. [Host: Mr. Stermer] As we start to wrap this up, could each one of you give me one of the biggest lessons you learned about leading the staff? 00;51;54;11 - 00;52;13;10 [Guest: MAJ Foy] Staff? It it's an interesting beast, right? Everybody's got a different background. Everybody's got a different specialty leading the staff. You have to figure out how to get a common goal centered around it, and bring everybody together to kind of work and garrison a lot. And even in the tactical realm, everybody kind of lives at a different place. 00;52;13;15 - 00;52;29;26 [Guest: MAJ Foy] And, Ron, you kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier. And, Joe, I know you definitely know this. You know, I'm not an S1. I'm not a techie guy. In the S6 realm. Yes, I did some logistics as a, as a battalion as way long ago. But you got to get down and know what it is. 00;52;29;26 - 00;52;50;06 [Guest: MAJ Foy] You're guys and gals do, in that environment, and you got to understand the problems that they face. And you got to be able to find the solutions or the person that has the solution for them and kind of make the two touch up and understand so that, you know, you can get effectiveness out of that. 00;52;50;09 - 00;53;09;29 [Guest: MAJ Foy] That's like the biggest part of leaving the staff is not only setting the common goal, but understanding what each of them are doing so that, you know, you don't go into the fallacy of you figure out who your 3 or 4 pipe hitters are, and they end up doing all the work, and everybody else is just sitting on the side, twiddling their thumbs, being like, well, I don't know what's going on. 00;53;10;01 - 00;53;35;24 [Guest: MAJ Foy] So if you can get that all in there and kind of, you know, figure out how maybe it's a turn based system of where the NCO kind of leads the planning effort, or everybody gets a turn about being in front of the man, you'll build a much better, effective staff that is motivated together, and takes on problem together rather than separated smaller entity problems that don't necessarily together to form a good plan. 00;53;35;24 - 00;53;52;18 [Guest: MAJ Foy] At the end of the day. [Guest: MAJ Perez] I like that the first is, you know, the common goal, right? You have to create a common goal among the staff, you know, but creating common goals in the short and the long run. Hey, we're going to get through this exercise and this is what we as a staff want to achieve. 00;53;52;18 - 00;54;15;13 [Guest: MAJ Perez] And then also in the next six months, this is where I want to achieve, what we want to achieve as a staff. So knowing your individual leaders, knowing their staff sections support their learning in a professional sense, right. Understand what your staff sections are doing. Like Charlie mentioned, you know you have a working understanding of IPPSA. I have a working understanding of G Army. 00;54;15;13 - 00;54;39;02 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Know what your S6 is talking about. When he's talking about whatever that new widget is, you don't have to know the details of it, but at least understand enough to contextualize, their issues, their problems, and their successes so that you can magnify those as appropriate. But the other part of this is, you know, get them the person, the professional mentorship that they need. 00;54;39;05 - 00;55;01;16 [Guest: MAJ Perez] You know, I always told my staff, like, I don't understand your job nearly as well as you're going to. I don't understand this system as well as you do, but I'm the one that can go to the Brigade S6, separate from an s6 to S6 relationship and I can say, hey brother, I need you to spend some time with my captain down here. 00;55;01;16 - 00;55;31;25 [Guest: MAJ Perez] He's doing really great work, but we need some help with this because that Brigade S6 might not see that. But also you can leverage their professional knowledge to expand the professional knowledge of your individual leaders and their shop. Same thing with S1, same thing with that. You know, especially S4. [Guest: MAJ Rice] I would offer that. Just make sure you sit down with your people, understand what they want to do professionally and personally. 00;55;31;25 - 00;55;48;27 [Guest: MAJ Rice] Like what are their goals? You have to take a group of people who either had different expectations or they they're in a transition period, especially, you know, as you're starting to pin captain and figure out what do they want to do, not just in the Army, but like, what do they want to do for themselves? And I say that. 00;55;48;27 - 00;56;07;16 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So I remember young cadet and Second Lieutenant Rice joined the Army because I wanted to go to Iraq. I remember the invasion in '03. I was in high school. I had a contract before I was 18 to join the Marine Corps, and I needed my dad to sign it, and he ripped it up. He laughed at me and told me I was going to go to college, and I was like, dad, I'm going to miss my generation's war. 00;56;07;16 - 00;56;22;02 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And he again laughed at me and said, war's going nowhere, son. You'll be fine. He's like, you can figure that out after you go to college. He sent me to college, and I went and did that, and I ended up joining ROTC. And lo and behold, I went to Iraq six years later, and my father immediately was more right than I like to admit that he was. 00;56;22;02 - 00;56;39;08 [Guest: MAJ Rice] When he gives me life advice. I joined the Army because I wanted to deploy and I wanted to go to combat. And as a young captain, I definitely remember sitting on a range during a gunnery and was like, this is not what I joined for, and I'm not having fun. And the alignment of what I wanted to do in my career. 00;56;39;10 - 00;56;55;19 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And I had a mentor who sat me down and was like, well, what do you want? If you're going to stay in, what do you want to do? And there was a profoundly impactful moment for me. I realized that I liked coaching and I like teaching, and I like mentoring young leaders. Several individuals that, you know, are now majors and they're very successful. 00;56;55;19 - 00;57;15;05 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And I've told them for a long time, if you can do the job that I'm doing now, if I can teach you to do my job and do it better for me, it's better for soldiers. That's the rewarding part for me in my career. And that's my driving motivation personally and professionally for why I do this. We all joke about, you know, suffering, shared suffering on the staff. 00;57;15;05 - 00;57;41;21 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And it is it is a true statement. But if you can minimize the shared suffering and make a place enjoyable to show up to work, you will get better outputs from the individuals who are working for you and the organization will be more successful. If you if you can make it a place where what I'm doing today is going to help me do what I want to do long term, that's good. 00;57;41;23 - 00;57;58;24 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And maybe they don't know what they want to do long term. So then be involved in coach and mentor them. And I think that's a critical part of being a major inside of a battalion or a brigade, trying to help people figure it out, because we're all young at that point. We're in a transitionary period in our lives, and some people just don't know what they want to do. 00;57;58;24 - 00;58;15;17 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And maybe you can help provide them that. But the range of what people will ask for and what they want to do can vary from I have I have an emergent problem right now. Please help me all the way up to like I have significant life goals I want to do. Can you help me like set the set the stones to get there? 00;58;15;20 - 00;58;32;24 [Guest: MAJ Rice] So that would be what I would offer is lesson learned for me. [Host: Mr. Stermer] All right, gentlemen, thanks for sharing your insights and your time. Today. Appreciate learning about some of your experiences as Battalion XO and S3s. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience that's just a final closing comment. [Guest: MAJ Foy] So. So I know a common theme. 00;58;32;24 - 00;58;55;20 [Guest: MAJ Foy] We talk about suffering, and iron majors and the grind. I would also argue like this is my last few years down at the battalion level, where some of the most awesome points in my military career and, you know, I'm over the 20 year mark when you take a step back, is very impactful not only to yourself, but to so many people that you are able to touch in and influence. 00;58;55;20 - 00;59;18;06 [Guest: MAJ Foy] You get into it. And yeah, there are parts that are there going to be hard, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not great. It is a wonderful, great opportunity. And, you know, I've been very blessed with the relationships that I met all the way from battalion commanders and brigade commanders down junior officers and, you know, junior soldiers. 00;59;18;08 - 00;59;27;23 [Guest: MAJ Foy] If you just keep that positive attitude going into it, it is a really enjoyable, awesome experience. 00;59;27;26 - 00;59;56;13 [Guest: MAJ Perez] Yeah, absolutely. I Charlie's right. You know, this is that line from CGSC, right? You're your organizational leaders now. The fun now is not in getting to do the cool stuff like you're going to go downrange. You might shoot at table six. You might not, but seek the enjoyment in the organization's success. And, you know, get that fulfillment from watching the whole succeed. 00;59;56;15 - 01;00;18;06 [Guest: MAJ Perez] You know that some of the best times of by XO S3 was coming out of operations that we thought were going to be terrible. Maybe they were rough, but watching the battalion succeed and get through it and come out better than it was that was the fulfilling part. And you really have to seek those opportunities while you're doing it. 01;00;18;08 - 01;00;41;11 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I guess the last thing I would add is embrace. Situations where you think things are not going to be either what you want or they're going to be difficult. I know for me personally, like being in S3 is what I like to doing. Operations are comfortable for me. You know, we that's what Combat Arms World revolves around. 01;00;41;11 - 01;00;56;05 [Guest: MAJ Rice] I went to graduate school. I focused a lot on operations in business. And so being in S3 was very comfortable for me. And when my boss was like, hey, Ron, you're going to be the XO. And I was like, cool, when's that happening? And he's like, well, tomorrow, because the XO is going to be the Brigade XO. 01;00;56;05 - 01;01;29;02 [Guest: MAJ Rice] And I'm like, oh, I got both roles. I was not excited or really looking forward to the next years being the Battalion XO, and I can tell you that I loved being in S3 professionally and personally. Being an XO was probably one of the most rewarding jobs I've ever done in the Army. And it wasn't what I was looking forward to and just embrace difficult challenges because sometimes you will grow and learn from those things in ways that you never could have anticipated before you stepped into that role. 01;01;29;05 - 01;01;49;01 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Great. Today we discussed lessons learned by Battalion XOs and S3s. You can find core products such as first 100 days, XO, S3, Home Station training and running estimates. For more insights on topics discussed, plus our entire catalog, a print and digital publication available for download on our tech enabled site. There you can request print products shipped to you. 01;01;49;02 - 01;02;10;24 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Be sure to like and subscribe to our podcast and follow us on social media. You can see all resources available at www.army.mil/call. CTC bulletins and post exercise reports offer lessons learned from recent unit operations in a variety of environments. If you have trouble finding information on our website, use the request for information tab and receive direct feedback from an analyst at call. 01;02;10;25 - 01;02;34;20 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Finally, if you have a best practice to submit or a capability gap that requires a DOTMILPF solution, submit observations directly to call using the Quick Fire portal on our website. I would like to thank all of our call team members and our producer, Ms. Paige Cox. Thank you for listening to CALL's podcast Insights from the Fight. We are dedicated to providing you with the insights you need to lead, train and fight today and in the future. 01;02;34;21 - 01;02;43;17 [Host: Mr. Stermer] Join us next time for another discussion on lessons learned from the force.